Curse

Splitisoda · Dec 30, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

sorry, this has nothing to do with the current discussion

dont jump into a discussion you dont understand.

1. your build does NO pressure. even less than auto-attacking.
2. insti-gib spikes take somewhere around 5 attack skills, and if your spike isnt instigib, it damn well better come with pressure.

/offtopic

1.IF the enemies dead, do i still need pressure?
2.As long as you have the highest of the high, it doesnt.And you said AROUND 5 attack skills, the magic number is around that.

Bobby2 · Dec 31, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

1.IF the enemies dead, do i still need pressure?
2.As long as you have the highest of the high, it doesnt.And you said AROUND 5 attack skills, the magic number is around that.

I know of no instagib builds with less than 5 'attack skills' (counting AoD and suchlike for the sake of this argument). With the nerf of BLS, 4-skill kills are right out.

Dare ya, name me one.

Coloneh · Dec 31, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

1.IF the enemies dead, do i still need pressure?
2.As long as you have the highest of the high, it doesnt.And you said AROUND 5 attack skills, the magic number is around that.

1. yeah, you do. there are 7 other people on the team that need to be pressured. if you spike down one target then wait 20+ seconds without doing damage, your team is not going to be much of a threat, and then enemies monks might just take a nap.
2. what?

LightningHell · Dec 31, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

>.< I clicked on another page when I was typing this.

Quote:

Sins can have this too, by not taking an instagib build. At least I feel I'm pretty good at harassment (general annoyance?) with my Sin.

Rangers harass better than a sin by a mile, and casters are better at mes effects in general.

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Rly? Isn't it only smart to exploit game mechanics (including AI)? As for the team in question, I trust your memory more than mine!

The team in question I believe relied on a strong NPC advantage to win in VoD, as the two Shadow Form gankers were really, really inflexible characters.

I think you misunderstand what I mean. It is smart. It should be used if it is available. But it shouldn't exist in the first place.

Quote:

Im going to go ahead and assume that you meant, a team shouldn't have no chance in winning if they don't have a counter lightninghell.

Yup.

Quote:

1.IF the enemies dead, do i still need pressure?
2.As long as you have the highest of the high, it doesnt.And you said AROUND 5 attack skills, the magic number is around that.

I haven't seen your build, but are you trying to PvP...in PvE...or something?

Bobby2 · Dec 31, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Rangers harass better than a sin by a mile, and casters are better at mes effects in general.

But on the other hand, I can still spike a lot better than those guys even with my non-instagib build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I think you misunderstand what I mean. It is smart. It should be used if it is available. But it shouldn't exist in the first place.

Nah, we agree on that. But if something very powerful exists - however unjust/unfair it may be - it'd be stupid not to arm yourself against it. (edit: or take it yourself.

)

LightningHell · Dec 31, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

But on the other hand, I can still spike a lot better than those guys even with my non-instagib build.

Ah, but we use Rangers mainly for split, of which an Assassin is vastly inferior in whether you can spike well or not, and caster classes aren't meant to spike - a support spike via Shatter or Lightning Orb or whatnot is enough for the "spike" that they need.

Simply put, an Assassin has no business trying to harass, shutdown, or perform utility in this state.

Quote:

Nah, we agree on that. But if something very powerful exists - however unjust/unfair it may be - it'd be stupid not to arm yourself against it. (edit: or take it yourself.

)

Ah, but the Assassin isn't "very powerful". It's mainly just degenerate.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 31, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

But on the other hand, I can still spike a lot better than those guys even with my non-instagib build.

By definition, your spike fails if it doesn't instagib.

LightningHell · Dec 31, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

By definition, your spike fails if it doesn't instagib.

Well, I'm assuming he's talking about being a midline offensive support character.

Problem is, he doesn't hold enough weight to be considered support.

Splitisoda · Dec 31, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

1. yeah, you do. there are 7 other people on the team that need to be pressured. if you spike down one target then wait 20+ seconds without doing damage, your team is not going to be much of a threat, and then enemies monks might just take a nap.
2. what?

1.Ok, so if an ele runs out of energy and is purely at 0 energy, and only killed 1 person which was the monk, so will that make my team not a threat either? Seeing as the elementalist isnt doign too much until its energy is restored.

LightningHell · Dec 31, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

1.Ok, so if an ele runs out of energy and is purely at 0 energy, and only killed 1 person which was the monk, so will that make my team not a threat either? Seeing as the elementalist isnt doign too much until its energy is restored.

Yes, the Elementalist is now out. No, the team isn't out yet. And why is an Elementalist trying to do damage?

ensoriki · Dec 31, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

If the enemies dead, you don't need pressure, But you need your ass to be doing something, because there are 7 other people.

Quote:

1.Ok, so if an ele runs out of energy and is purely at 0 energy, and only killed 1 person which was the monk, so will that make my team not a threat either? Seeing as the elementalist isnt doign too much until its energy is restored.

....wut?

are you saying if the ele on your team is out of energy your not a threat?

That ele is not a threat, best he can do is wand a nice 16 damage >.>
.

moriz · Dec 31, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

i find assassin players have very little understanding of how offense and defense in GW works. i can't really blame them. after all, they're spoiled by profession that can (at least at low skill levels) bypass all that.

offense and defense in GW exist in layers. the most fundamental is positioning and movement. how you position yourself, and how you move on the battlefield, is the primary determinant on how well you accomplish offense and defense. on top of that are your skillbars and what you do with them. on top of that, there's the team: what your team is doing will factor into how well you defend yourself and create offense.

to create offense, you have to go through the three layers of defense of your opponents. to defend yourself, you have to constantly adjust your three layers of defense to counteract whatever your opponents are doing to disrupt/shut it down. this philosophy of offense/defense can be see on how the standard gvg match plays. the offensive and disruptive characters try to go through opponent defense layers, and defensive character constantly try to keep up their own defense layers. as such, the key aspect of every offensive character is their ability to disrupt defense, creating their own windows of opportunities to drive home kills, or for their teammates to drive home kills.

the assassin is a profession that can, to a large part, ignore all that. that's because they are the only offensive character that CANNOT create their own windows of opportunities. instead, they have to wait for their opponents to make a mistake, and rely on their high damage to punish their opponents for their mistakes.

however, as the assassin player move up the ladder skill-wise, he'll soon find that he'll do absolutely nothing. that's because beyond a certain point, opponents will NOT give him that opening to exploit. he can still attempt to spike, but the spike won't kill. if the spike doesn't kill, the assassin cannot do anything else to factor into the battle.

that is why the current concept of the assassin is bad. it is a one dimensional spiker with nothing else. it exists only in either an overpowered form (too much damage), or useless form (good damage). which is why the assassin will have to be changed, or made marginal as possible.

ensoriki · Dec 31, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Ummm okay...

Kiting is a defense, and your position is a defense.

Sure these things are really obvious when No one uses any skills, but when skills go, these don't become as great.
Not to say they are useless however.

I believe you ment Bad damage for useless form and not good damage.

It's interesting how you bring one-dimensional Spiker, thats not true.

Its a spiker, because everything else it CAN do, is weak or inferior.

If anything, the main reason you see assassins who live and breath insta-gib is because they don't know anything else.
If they try to use any of the assassins other skills that do not base themselves of hoping for the opponent to make a mistake, they fail. They can't find anything of use other than spiking from the assassin's skill base, because anything else sucks.

I think it was you who said, " I tried to make a deadly arts utility sin, and it did not work out"

If the class is so ... one dimensional
Why does it have skills that don't work that way?

I'm probably not communicating probably, im a hasty kid =P

moriz · Dec 31, 2007, 11:19 PM // 23:19

and that's why you are wrong. positioning and movement factor greatly into offense. positioning and movement are the MOST important aspect of both. for example, i can position myself and move in a certain way to evade almost any attacker. in the same vein, i can position and move my warrior or assassin in such a way that a target simply cannot escape. all that factor in before i use any skill on my skill bar. GW is a game of movement and positioning. to be successful at GW, you need good movement and positioning. there's no getting around that fact.

you also admit it yourself: the assassin excels at solospiking, and their other abilities are inferior to everything else. because of that reason, they ARE one-dimensional spikers. whether or not they have the skills to perform in other roles is irrelevant. if those skills are not good enough (or are not on par with other professions) then those skills might as well not exist.

Bobby2 · Jan 01, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

By the same line, would it also be 'useless' to play, say, an interrupt Mes because Rangers 'do it better'? Just because its secondary abilities are not to the standard of other classes' primaries doesn't mean they should be written off so easily.

Positioning important? Hell yeah. 3 Skills in my current bar relate to speed and positioning (Dash, SSpeed, BMT - that's right no Shadow Step) - and thereby the inherent ability to adapt and (to an admittedly limited degree) control enemy movement. I'm no Cripshot (eh Moriz?) or Water Ele, but I can damn sure make a nuisance of myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Problem is, he doesn't hold enough weight to be considered support.

Depends on what field you want support in, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriz

that's because beyond a certain point, opponents will NOT give him that opening to exploit. he can still attempt to spike, but the spike won't kill. if the spike doesn't kill, the assassin cannot do anything else to factor into the battle.

If spiking is indeed all one wants to do as a Sin I'd have to agree. But I don't. Many times I've engaged with the sole intention of kiting and luring someone with me - confident in my ability to outrun them - and so change the works of a skirmish in another way than by just offing someone. 86 armour-ignoring damage to someone (and adjacents if applicable) per Blossom means they cannot afford to ignore me. Such pressure is hard to handle for ANY Monk.

I'm glad this discussion got constructive again.

Happy New Year all!

ensoriki · Jan 01, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and that's why you are wrong. positioning and movement factor greatly into offense. positioning and movement are the MOST important aspect of both. for example, i can position myself and move in a certain way to evade almost any attacker. in the same vein, i can position and move my warrior or assassin in such a way that a target simply cannot escape. all that factor in before i use any skill on my skill bar. GW is a game of movement and positioning. to be successful at GW, you need good movement and positioning. there's no getting around that fact.

you also admit it yourself: the assassin excels at solospiking, and their other abilities are inferior to everything else. because of that reason, they ARE one-dimensional spikers. whether or not they have the skills to perform in other roles is irrelevant. if those skills are not good enough (or are not on par with other professions) then those skills might as well not exist.

I never disagreed to the usefulness of Position and movement, but as I believe, the power of them decreases as skills are applied.

If you want to see it as that for assassin solospiking, then fair enough see as you see fit.

You speak of how one dimensional it is moriz, you also say that while they have other skills, they're to crap to be worth mention.
If thats the case, why do you primarily focus on things like Daggers chains and Shadowsteps?

Unreal Havoc · Jan 04, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I know of no instagib builds with less than 5 'attack skills' (counting AoD and suchlike for the sake of this argument). With the nerf of BLS, 4-skill kills are right out.

Dare ya, name me one.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/W_Way_of_the_Shadow

Unreal Havoc · Jan 04, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and that's why you are wrong. positioning and movement factor greatly into offense. positioning and movement are the MOST important aspect of both. for example, i can position myself and move in a certain way to evade almost any attacker. in the same vein, i can position and move my warrior or assassin in such a way that a target simply cannot escape. all that factor in before i use any skill on my skill bar. GW is a game of movement and positioning. to be successful at GW, you need good movement and positioning. there's no getting around that fact.

Movement and positioning is what made the AoD Shock Assassin so great for use in GvG with it's dual Shadow Step forming a valuable anchor position. I find its more the anticipation of the player and his general knowledge and skill in using the build he is running that determines how useful an Assassin is in PvP.

LightningHell · Jan 04, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Depends on what field you want support in, right?

Name any one field that is not something absolutely useless or negatable that somebody else can't do better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

If spiking is indeed all one wants to do as a Sin I'd have to agree. But I don't. Many times I've engaged with the sole intention of kiting and luring someone with me - confident in my ability to outrun them - and so change the works of a skirmish in another way than by just offing someone. 86 armour-ignoring damage to someone (and adjacents if applicable) per Blossom means they cannot afford to ignore me. Such pressure is hard to handle for ANY Monk.

That also needs to take into account what the prevalent skirmish template is like. Right now, it's with a Ranger with Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Natural Stride, Crippling Shot, and whatnot...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensoriki

I never disagreed to the usefulness of Position and movement, but as I believe, the power of them decreases as skills are applied.

In terms of low-level play, such considerations may be of merit. However, when factoring in that skills and the way they are used vary relatively little from middle to top play, with the exception of some plays, and position as well as movement vary a lot.

I worded it badly.

Quote:

If you want to see it as that for assassin solospiking, then fair enough see as you see fit.

You speak of how one dimensional it is moriz, you also say that while they have other skills, they're to crap to be worth mention.
If thats the case, why do you primarily focus on things like Daggers chains and Shadowsteps?

Mainly because there isn't anything else that the Assassin offers, I guess. And that they're the points that the Assassin needs fixing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc

Movement and positioning is what made the AoD Shock Assassin so great for use in GvG with it's dual Shadow Step forming a valuable anchor position. I find its more the anticipation of the player and his general knowledge and skill in using the build he is running that determines how useful an Assassin is in PvP.

On the contrary, while AoD makes for many plays that can be used, it also is possibly worse than whatever shadowstep is run today in terms of movement and positioning need. In a way, you are correct in the first sentence; movement and positioning, or rather the (now) complete lack of it, is what made the AoD Shock Assassin so great for use in GvG with its dual Shadow Step forming a valuable anchor position, as now he doesn't even need to worry about getting out alive.

Of course, this is taking into account it's a skirmish, and if it's a stand occurrence...the point still stands, and if you have semidecent monks and coordination you shouldn't die after unloading anyway.

X Cytherea X · Jan 05, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

since instagib has been so forcibly (and inelegantly) removed from the meta, assassins should be fixed such that they can provide disruption and utility almost at the level of rangers and mesmers AND have formidable damage to boot, in order to have a valuable role again.

some currently existing builds emulate this type of gameplay, but are hindered by costs, cooldowns, lack of bar compression, etc. anet should address these issues, but it seems they have stopped caring, as most of the crying complainers have been satiated by the past months' nerfage.

p.s. been gone for so long and this thread is still spewing the same shit, lol